Talk:Belle's Sisters/@comment-1672596-20150608173707/@comment-1672596-20150620143250

"Oh, Eric. You're just too predictable. I'll spare you the details on how Belle being simply good rather than absolutely pure doesn't diminish the intended message, since I know you'll have some hair-brained "rebuttal" for that, too. Do you know why you rarely lose an argument? It isn't because of your sound reasoning, on the contrary, your reasoning is incredibly flawed. All you do is nitpick. No, the real reason you rarely lose is because nothing gets through that thick skin of yours."

I could give a lot of cutting personal comments to you like you often do to me, but I won't, because I prefer doing things by the books, not trying to resort to insulting people as that is just shooting myself in the foot. And for the record, when it's a true beauty comes from within moral, the person needs to be pure in order for it to actually WORK. That's what true beauty comes from within comes from. Simply being "good" isn't enough. Need I remind you that Bulma was also technically good, yet she can't even ride the Flying Nimbus?

And for the record, I DO give sound reasoning, citing stuff from the film, from developmental notes, from real life, and actually explaining constantly how they apply. Now, I won't say I'm omniscient or I don't make mistakes. I'm human after all, but I do make sure to be as accurate as possible. I don't just nitpick. You want proof? Just look at the sources supplied at Wikipedia.

"But since I bet you want some sort of rebuttal, I'll humor you. Your logic is as follows: Belle did the only thing she could to defend herself when Gaston had her backed against a door, therefore she's a bad person."

If she was simply defending herself the only way she could as you put it, she would NOT smirk and wave goodbye in a mocking manner when he fell into the mud (and yes, she did do exactly that. I've even got a GIF for it: http://33.media.tumblr.com/9e93cbbfb4514c6059c44d66d371c783/tumblr_ne4uw4c23E1tt2x1bo6_500.gif). Actually, she'd react more like Honoka here if that was truly the case: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bY2RvvuXabE#t=20, or if you don't have a Youtube video player: http://honoka-fc.deviantart.com/art/Honoka-Power-Blow-Gif-525407293). Oh, and I can also point out how Mega Man acted when he killed Ra Moon in the Archie Comics serial for Meta Man, despite knowing he was a threat that needed to be put down (ie, he regretted having to do it, even when he knew he was pure evil). And BTW, Gaston didn't merely corner her, she used herself as bait and lured him there so she could kick him out. Her overall actions (exaggerated stumbling and saying she's speechless in a slightly sarcastic manner would have made that very obvious). In other words, she was tricking him.

"Gaston and Lumiere are both womanizers, therefore the film is hypocritical (never mind how it was Gaston's brutishness, not his womanizing, that made him a bad person).

No, it was actually his womanizing, as that was made very clear by some of his statements. It wasn't his brutishness. If it was his brutishness that turned her of, he would have called him out for the times he beat up LeFou. Even before the Gaston reprise, it was meant to be his views on women that painted him in a negative light (especially when Katzenberg and Woolverton both explicitly mentioned they changed the plot to have a more feminist twist).

"The Bimbettes are not foils, therefore they should be judged as poor foils (never mind how they are clearly intended to be gag characters, and not foils)."

In case you've forgotten, being gag characters is NOT a reason to exclude someone from being a foil: The Joker was a gag character (using comedy and effectively being a comic relief character), yet he was shown to be a foil of Batman and one of the greatest threats in Gotham. Besides, Vanessa in The Little Mermaid was even less than a gag character, being nothing more than a disguise for Ursula, meaning she wasn't even her own character, yet even SHE played up being a foil for Ariel. And considering they're the most recurring emphasized females in the village besides Belle, they're the closest we've got to foils for her.

"You mention Belle "being a jerk" to the Beast, I assume you're referring to the scene where she's tending to his wound. In that scene, she was standing up to the Beast when he was being a jerk."

No, I'm even talking about that scene (though that's another problem I have with the scene as Belle effectively won that argument despite the fact that she doesn't even own up to the fact that a large part of the events WERE largely her fault [really, the only thing Beast was actually to blame for in that instance was smashing up the furniture when he lost control of his temper. His anger at Belle was perfectly justified since she deliberately disobeyed the stipulation of her stay at the Castle, and nearly ruined his chances at becoming human by stupidly trying to touch what was obviously something that shouldn't have been touched]), I'm talking about the bit where she refused to come down to dinner and threw a hissy fit to Beast. Considering that Beast actually DID give her an actual bedroom as well as given free access to most of the castle, that was extremely bad of her. And she still threw a tantrum even when Beast at least tried (very painfully, I should mention) to politely get her to come down to dinner, twice. How exactly is that even remotely a good thing at all? And yes, I'll acknowledge that Beast did wrong there as well.

"I'm sorry, did you want Belle to be like Cinderella, who took other peoples' abuse like a good little slave girl? Did whatever she was told without question?

Not necessarily, she could have easily been depicted like Ariel, who actually WAS a sweetheart as well as actually being proactive despite what Linda Woolverton tastelessly implied.

"Wouldn't want to find out what her captor is hiding in a forbidden room?"

When she basically said "So that's the West Wing" in a somewhat spiteful tone (and BTW, a lot of people, even people who were otherwise Belle fans, objected to that. Namely Stratego of IMDb), yes, she shouldn't want to find that out. And quite frankly, doing something like that is going to be very bad anyways. Adam and Eve also wanted to do what was forbidden with the forbidden fruit, and you know how that turned out, and now humanity is diseased as a result, even WITH Jesus's sacrifice and rising from the dead.

"As for the foil, the Beast was Belle's foil, and that's all that was needed."

No, no, a foil would be to emphasize traits one person has that another doesn't, and the foil DOESN'T change at all, and is usually used in literature and fiction to highlight differences between two people in the moral, exact opposites that can't come together, yet also have enough similarities to further emphasize. A good example of foils are Kefka and Terra from Final Fantasy VI, or Seymour and Yuna in Final Fantasy X, or Owlman and Batman in Crisis on Two Worlds. And for the record, Belle's definitely not Beast's foil. Gaston was. The creators made that very clear.

"Not that you'll listen, of course. You're just going to go back to regurgitating the same claims, over and over again, without listening to any dissenting opinion. You never could take criticism, could you? If you could, you'd probably still be on YouTube, prattling on about how great Misty is compared to every other female anime character. Tell me, do you still live with your parents? Are these really your opinions, or are they just what "the person who you owe your existence to" told you?"

That has absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject matter at hand, and you resorted to insults because you really couldn't find any facts to refute, so you basically lost the argument.

"And when I called you a purist, I meant specifically in regards to Beauty and the Beast. Y'know, like how Agustinaldo is with Alice in Wonderland, specifically. Not that I expect you to understand this, considering your "must fit all qualifications, or none of them" mentality when it comes to things like this."

In case you've forgotten, I actually liked the 1988 and 1989 drafts of Beauty and the Beast despite their having some differences from the tale (namely, the fact that Belle has an evil aunt instead of two wicked elder sisters, or how Belle had suitors in both drafts instead of no suitors at all in the original tale). If I were truly a purist, even in regards to Beauty and the Beast, especially in regards to that, I'd object to those changes precisely because they weren't in the book. I can tolerate some changes, since when adapting something, it is sometimes necessary to cut or add in stuff because of differing formats. What I can't tolerate is changes that don't even match up with the original tale at all.

"I don't think your problem has anything to do with Belle. I think your problem has everything to do with you. Because Belle didn't do what you would do in that situation. And I suspect the reality subtext regarding Howard Ashman also has something to do with it. I'm to understand you have a problem with how a certain group of people live their lives? Your problems with the film are yours, and yours alone. Or are they?"

I've seen some people complain about the bit about the West Wing, actually, and on IMDb. Heck, I've seen some people complain about Belle on there as well. And for the record, there are plenty of people who would have done what I would have proposed Belle would have done in that situation. Many of the soldiers. In fact, it's those things that actually make someone "smart." Not just reading books.

And if you're alluding to Howard Ashman's homosexuality, that has nothing to do with it. In fact, I was irritated at Jeffrey Katzenberg needlessly shoehorning a feminist message into the film at the expense of the moral. And even if I did have a problem with his homosexual lifestyle, it's not just because of my religion, it's also to do with the fact that it causes a lot of societal problems as well as even medical problems (need I remind you that Ashman DIED because of AIDS he landed himself with via his lifestyle?).

Let me guess, you're PorygonSquared from Pokecommunity? You sound very similar to him.