Talk:Zootopia/@comment-27926499-20160330111647/@comment-27997791-20160402192046

Ok, I think my missconception about you saying that Bellwether wanted Judy darted came from when you said

"Again Dr Badger couldn't possibly be working 24/7 at the asylum, as she would have to get out into the open sooner or later. Bellwether has cameras to every location remember and was leading Judy right there. She, or Doug could have darted her and still frame Lionheart, she did not do the former."

My sleepy head must've assumed that the pronoune "she" was refering to Judy, who was the last name you mentioned in that paragraph, though I can see now that you appear to have refered to Dr. Madge. My bad.

I'd say that the "holes" could probably more accuretly be said to be in the script that in Bellwether's plan. Yes, they do affect how seriously you take her as a villain, becasue the more consistent the plan seems, the easier to believe and the more threatening the antagonist is. But given that it's clear she was trying to get Nick to kill Judy and given how there is no way of getting around that fact that she would expect(or even hope for) turing predators into savage killers to result in some pople being hurt or killed, I don't see how you can induce she had any aversion to causing deaths.

It just seems so much easier to just accept that the inconsistencies that you interpret as her being unwilling to do certain things, are just the result of the writers not being consistent with what someone like her would do given the oppertunities she had. She is a written character, there is nothing strange about a few plot holes around her. Often it's completely fine to look at little hints and inconsistencies in films and theorize if they could be seen as having any implication about the character, and whether that works as a fan-theory or if it's something the writers might've intentionally put there.

But in this case the character has allready demonstrated to not be aversed to getting people killed, so no amount of inductive theorizing can conclude that she is. The inconsistencies cannot be meaningfully projected onto the character's agenda, as they don't line up with what we're explicitly told about the character. We must face that the wirters are the real casue of those plot holes, and agree to suspend our disbelief. Otherwise you could undermine the motives of almost any character in any story. Many if not most villains tend to fail to do what they logically should have done to achive their agenda. Go watch some videos on the "How It Should Have Ended" Youtube channel if you want some examples of this. It doesn't mean you can allways meaningfully infere that none of those characters had the motivations they expressed or that they were hesitant to doing certain things, it just tends to mean they are limited by writing.

The idea that Bellwether was allready sabotaging Lionhearts coverup is just a rationalization was of course just a suggested rationalization to cover some of the plot holes and make Bellwether look more efficient, but again, I think the real explanation is that Bellwether didn't know of Lionhearts conspiracy, not becuase it wouldn't make sense for her to know, but because the movie doens't seem to imply that she did.

"Why in the world would they do that if they are being targeted by Bellwether? They would report it right away since Bellwether has no real killing intent." I'm unsure what you mean. Why would the animals who helped cover up the savage breakout and try find a cure "reprot it to the authorities"? They were PART of the authorities, they worked closely together with the mayor. And to repeat myself, Bellwether's plan explicitly involved animals going crazy and presumably killing each other. But aside from that, what do you suggest the coverup co-conspirators would report and to who? That their illegal conspiracy was being sabotaged? What makes you think they'd even know who would be sabotaging it? They didn't know what was causing this to begin with, if the sheeps had secretly darted any of Dr. Madge's colleagues in the past to stifle their progress, what would they have to report? That someone or something was makng animals crazy. That much they allready knew. In fact, if they found that the affliction seemed prominent amongst their own staff, the simpelest conclusion would be that the afflcition was contageous, not that they were even being sabotaged.

Yeah, sorry for how ridiculously long this is getting, but I'm doing my best to give exaustive responses and not leavce room for vagueness.

I'm not even sure what that thing you said about the cart lab was. Are you saing her goal can't have been to dart lot's of people because of how small it was? Tat doesn't really matter, because even at the scale on which she was already operating, it's clearly implied that her plan was getting the sort of reaction she had hoped for, so just going at the pace she was at would eventually lead to people starting to become explicitly hostile and unaccepting of predators.

As for it being difficult to ratinalize why she would've just stood there with the gun when the cops came, that's a plot hole accepted by the writers in order to get the dramatic and satisfying imagery of her getting caught holding the gun. If you don't pin it on the writers, you'd instead be forced to conclude that her character is essentially a mental invalid. Again, realize that it's just a movie, not everything can be attributed to the characters themselves. As for her ram henchmen, I don't see why it'd be illegal to hang around with some random rams. They could claim that they saw the fox chasing the rabbit and only caught up with him by the time he had alreeady killed Judy. As for the camera thing, I'm not even sure what you're suggesting in this context.

As for Madge, again, I don't think we're supposed ot assume Bellwether actually knew who was behind the coverup, but even if she did - again - she might've actually had Dough dart several of the doctors working on the coverup for all we know, we don't know that Madge was the only one working on it or if others had gone mad working on it in the past.

As for putting Judy on th case, she had no reason to belive Judy would be able ot figure out what actaully caused the outbreak, it was only due to Judy bing lucky enough that she hear Manchas mention the term night howler and much later by coincidence realizing that the night howler was plant that Bellwether's own consiparcy was ever suspected.

"Darting Nick during the time Manchas was apprehended would have made plenty of sense since he was a predator and having Judy put a stop to him would have been perfect for the papers as she wasn't injured too. She didn't do that either." I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You're saying Nick should be darted so that "Judy would put a stop to him"? Wouldn't it be very probable that he killed Judy if he went insane? Why would she want Nick insane any more than she'd wnat Manchas insane?

Yeah, longest comment ever.