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  • Hey there might a chance that the Black Cauldron might get appreciated even more, by yound and old with the Gwythaints appearing in the Dragon poem of Disney Junior's A Poem Is... and also the Deathless warriors appearing in the House of Mouse episode, House of Magic. With that there might also be hope for Eilonwy to be an official Disney Princess

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    • Hey, maybe they'll do a live action adaption of the book series! That I would love to watch!!

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    • I'm talking about the animated version

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    • Well that, would be rather tricky. Eilonwy being a part of the Disney Princess Franchise is a touchy subject with Disney. 

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    • Because the other Princesses don't normally handle scary and intense things like undead warriors and people like the Horned King?

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    • Well no, but Eilonwy doesn't really do much in the film. As much as I love the book series, and how I think the movie and it's characters are really underated, and I totally think she should be a part of the franchise but if I were to be honest Eilonwy doesn't do much. She doesn't exactly have any proof that she is a princess, and she doesn't really show any magic abilities except her bauble floating. Plus she doesn't really fight off any of the undead warriors and the Horned King, and I know not all princesses have to be like Merida or Mulan but honestly her title is the only proof of her being a princess. She doesn't even really teach any of the kids morals. And while your point is true, Eilonwy did encounter and handle the Horned King and his reborn army is unlike what any other princess does, however, she doesn't do much to fight them off.

      But let's remember that The Black Cauldron was made in 1985, this was pre-renaissance era and the only princesses Disney had created were the three original ones (Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty.) and the way Disney handled her characterization is just unfair, for they references they looked for were the weak one dimensional princesses they've already created. This is just my opinion, and I like the Black Cauldron but I don't think Eilonwy is going to be included in the Disney Franchise. 

      My point in bringing up the series is maybe Disney can take a chance again with it in the future and turn it into a success if they still stick to the books origins, because that is what the original Black Cauldron lacked, a bit of the book origins still in the movie. 

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    • Honestly I like the movie even the first time I watched when it was first released to video for the very first time after the film was released for years, and I think Eilonwy deserves to be a princess. And what kind of magical abilities does Eilonwy have in the book and you're right about one thing, it might become more of a success in the future, it happened to It's a Wonderful Life.

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    • Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

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    • Please make Eilonwy replace Merida in the DP franchise.

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    • Swoobatman wrote:
      Please make Eilonwy replace Merida in the DP franchise.

      Now, now, now let's not be hasty, this has nothing to do with replacing

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    • DisneyFan1901 wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

      To be fair, it actually originally WAS going to be closer to the books, but then Jeffrey Katzenberg basically cut several bits of film out in an extremely reckless manner. That was actually largely the reason why the film was a huge failure. Sure, maybe if Katzenberg didn't do anything, there wasn't a guarantee it would have been a smash hit due to being pretty dark, but it WOULD have definitely gotten far better turnout than being a box office bomb. And unfortunately, despite the film flopping largely being HIS fault, Katzenberg used it's bomb status to gloat and get his way by making a lot of changes to various Disney films that were frankly unneeded, including, ironically, the Black Friday reel of Toy Story (the irony being that even though Black Cauldron was a dark film, Katzenberg actually attempted to make Toy Story much darker, and not in a good way). I think Lion King and The Little Mermaid actually were spared of most of the needless edits that Katzenberg proposed for the various films (Aladdin was infamous for basically having to rewrite most of the entire film from scratch by Katzenberg's order in an extremely short time period, and Beauty and the Beast had to be completely rewritten to not even resemble the original tale beyond Maurice getting locked up and Belle breaking the curse due to Katzenberg's insistence on having a feminist twist to the original tale [even Little Mermaid was more true to its source material, and that had a changed ending from the original tale, two changed endings in fact thanks to Katzenberg insisting on a Die Hard-type ending and thinking Ariel tackling Ursula was unrealistic {yet somehow Belle, who is obviously weaker than a mermaid, lifting Beast onto her horse and back onto the balcony in two separate events despite his clearly being heavier than her, is somehow realistic?}.], especially when the final film due to some of Belle's actions completely conflicting with the moral of the tale basically left the moral extremely broken. And Pocahontas, his true pet project [despite his claims, he was actually barely even involved in The Lion King's development], was, while not a box office bomb per-se, not exactly a successful movie especially given the era it was released in), and even The Little Mermaid had some close calls, considering he nearly tried to remove Part of Your World and of course the Die Hard-style ending (granted, I'll give him chops in that it did give a lot of testosterone action there and arguably made Eric a bit more of a badass, not that his badassery wasn't made clear as is, but it also kind of deprived Ariel a final hurrah.).

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    • Actually to me the film went well very well, even with Katzenburg. I think the biggest reason why it wasn't that close to the books of all is copyright like other films based on books. And I would know one film based on a book that wasn't a bit close to it yet it was a success, The Wizard of Oz.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

      To be fair, it actually originally WAS going to be closer to the books, but then Jeffrey Katzenberg basically cut several bits of film out in an extremely reckless manner. That was actually largely the reason why the film was a huge failure. Sure, maybe if Katzenberg didn't do anything, there wasn't a guarantee it would have been a smash hit due to being pretty dark, but it WOULD have definitely gotten far better turnout than being a box office bomb. And unfortunately, despite the film flopping largely being HIS fault, Katzenberg used it's bomb status to gloat and get his way by making a lot of changes to various Disney films that were frankly unneeded, including, ironically, the Black Friday reel of Toy Story (the irony being that even though Black Cauldron was a dark film, Katzenberg actually attempted to make Toy Story much darker, and not in a good way). I think Lion King and The Little Mermaid actually were spared of most of the needless edits that Katzenberg proposed for the various films (Aladdin was infamous for basically having to rewrite most of the entire film from scratch by Katzenberg's order in an extremely short time period, and Beauty and the Beast had to be completely rewritten to not even resemble the original tale beyond Maurice getting locked up and Belle breaking the curse due to Katzenberg's insistence on having a feminist twist to the original tale [even Little Mermaid was more true to its source material, and that had a changed ending from the original tale, two changed endings in fact thanks to Katzenberg insisting on a Die Hard-type ending and thinking Ariel tackling Ursula was unrealistic {yet somehow Belle, who is obviously weaker than a mermaid, lifting Beast onto her horse and back onto the balcony in two separate events despite his clearly being heavier than her, is somehow realistic?}.], especially when the final film due to some of Belle's actions completely conflicting with the moral of the tale basically left the moral extremely broken. And Pocahontas, his true pet project [despite his claims, he was actually barely even involved in The Lion King's development], was, while not a box office bomb per-se, not exactly a successful movie especially given the era it was released in), and even The Little Mermaid had some close calls, considering he nearly tried to remove Part of Your World and of course the Die Hard-style ending (granted, I'll give him chops in that it did give a lot of testosterone action there and arguably made Eric a bit more of a badass, not that his badassery wasn't made clear as is, but it also kind of deprived Ariel a final hurrah.).

      Yeah, Katzenberg did cut out a lot of stuff from the movie. Didn't he cut out like 17 minutes of screen time from the film? Not exactly sure about that but he did cut a good time portion out of the film.  Wait, wait, WAIT; he tried to make Toy Story darker? Ain't no one try and direct Toy Story except Pixar, they're true master's at CGI. Well I think Katzenberg did a favor in making Beauty and the Beast unlike the original story (Look at the comparison between Snow White's original fairytale and the Disney version. They really lightened up the film) but I get your point. Katzenberg just wasn't cut out for screenwriting and animating, he's more of a producer guy and he did, in all fairness do that to boost up Disney through it's Renaissance. 

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    • Walt Disney, Jr. wrote:
      Actually to me the film went well very well, even with Katzenburg. I think the biggest reason why it wasn't that close to the books of all is copyright like other films based on books. And I would know one film based on a book that wasn't a bit close to it yet it was a success, The Wizard of Oz.

      You have a fair point there about the Wizard of Oz! Also, they did cut out a bunch of characters from the series (In all fairness towards Disney, there is a lot!) 

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    • DisneyFan1901 wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

      To be fair, it actually originally WAS going to be closer to the books, but then Jeffrey Katzenberg basically cut several bits of film out in an extremely reckless manner. That was actually largely the reason why the film was a huge failure. Sure, maybe if Katzenberg didn't do anything, there wasn't a guarantee it would have been a smash hit due to being pretty dark, but it WOULD have definitely gotten far better turnout than being a box office bomb. And unfortunately, despite the film flopping largely being HIS fault, Katzenberg used it's bomb status to gloat and get his way by making a lot of changes to various Disney films that were frankly unneeded, including, ironically, the Black Friday reel of Toy Story (the irony being that even though Black Cauldron was a dark film, Katzenberg actually attempted to make Toy Story much darker, and not in a good way). I think Lion King and The Little Mermaid actually were spared of most of the needless edits that Katzenberg proposed for the various films (Aladdin was infamous for basically having to rewrite most of the entire film from scratch by Katzenberg's order in an extremely short time period, and Beauty and the Beast had to be completely rewritten to not even resemble the original tale beyond Maurice getting locked up and Belle breaking the curse due to Katzenberg's insistence on having a feminist twist to the original tale [even Little Mermaid was more true to its source material, and that had a changed ending from the original tale, two changed endings in fact thanks to Katzenberg insisting on a Die Hard-type ending and thinking Ariel tackling Ursula was unrealistic {yet somehow Belle, who is obviously weaker than a mermaid, lifting Beast onto her horse and back onto the balcony in two separate events despite his clearly being heavier than her, is somehow realistic?}.], especially when the final film due to some of Belle's actions completely conflicting with the moral of the tale basically left the moral extremely broken. And Pocahontas, his true pet project [despite his claims, he was actually barely even involved in The Lion King's development], was, while not a box office bomb per-se, not exactly a successful movie especially given the era it was released in), and even The Little Mermaid had some close calls, considering he nearly tried to remove Part of Your World and of course the Die Hard-style ending (granted, I'll give him chops in that it did give a lot of testosterone action there and arguably made Eric a bit more of a badass, not that his badassery wasn't made clear as is, but it also kind of deprived Ariel a final hurrah.).

      Yeah, Katzenberg did cut out a lot of stuff from the movie. Didn't he cut out like 17 minutes of screen time from the film? Not exactly sure about that but he did cut a good time portion out of the film.  Wait, wait, WAIT; he tried to make Toy Story darker? Ain't no one try and direct Toy Story except Pixar, they're true master's at CGI. Well I think Katzenberg did a favor in making Beauty and the Beast unlike the original story (Look at the comparison between Snow White's original fairytale and the Disney version. They really lightened up the film) but I get your point. Katzenberg just wasn't cut out for screenwriting and animating, he's more of a producer guy and he did, in all fairness do that to boost up Disney through it's Renaissance. 

      I know about the changes for Snow White (though to be fair, they were planning to just have the poisoned comb present, but they cut it for time and was a last-minute change). However, even among Disney's usual changes to various Fairy Tales, Beauty and the Beast took it to a whole new level (Snow White at least followed many of the core points. Beauty and the Beast only seemed to retain one core point. They actually planned to do a version that was a bit closer to the original tale, but, predictably, Katzenberg basically nixed it, due to wanting a "feminist twist" to the story and due to the draft being "too dark" [which is flimsy at best as the screenplay was about as dark as the Disney versions of Cinderella and Snow White, and everyone managed from that, and if anything, the final version came across as being pretty cynical even with the happy ending. Beauty in the original tale may have been manipulated by her wicked sisters [which reminds me, other than those Bimbettes, Belle doesn't even have any foils, especially none that go with the whole internal beauty/internal ugliness dynamic, and even those three girls' characterizations were botched as, other than crushing on Gaston, they displayed absolutely nothing that even indicates they were internally ugly, and some of Belle's actions in the film make this worse. Even The Little Mermaid had a foil like that with Vanessa, and that wasn't even intended to be the moral of the tale in the Disney version] into delaying her return by a day, but even she didn't basically sell out the Beast and his servants to what was clearly an uncontrollable mob.].). And yes, Katzenberg actually DID demand a darker Toy Story. You can read it up here: Black Friday reel. You can even watch it below:

      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Basically, this mess was the result of Jeffrey Katzenberg demanding that the movie have a "more adult, cynical edge", and as you can see with this version, especially how Woody was depicted, that was an extremely awful idea. This even led Toy Story to nearly be cancelled.

        Loading editor
    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

      To be fair, it actually originally WAS going to be closer to the books, but then Jeffrey Katzenberg basically cut several bits of film out in an extremely reckless manner. That was actually largely the reason why the film was a huge failure. Sure, maybe if Katzenberg didn't do anything, there wasn't a guarantee it would have been a smash hit due to being pretty dark, but it WOULD have definitely gotten far better turnout than being a box office bomb. And unfortunately, despite the film flopping largely being HIS fault, Katzenberg used it's bomb status to gloat and get his way by making a lot of changes to various Disney films that were frankly unneeded, including, ironically, the Black Friday reel of Toy Story (the irony being that even though Black Cauldron was a dark film, Katzenberg actually attempted to make Toy Story much darker, and not in a good way). I think Lion King and The Little Mermaid actually were spared of most of the needless edits that Katzenberg proposed for the various films (Aladdin was infamous for basically having to rewrite most of the entire film from scratch by Katzenberg's order in an extremely short time period, and Beauty and the Beast had to be completely rewritten to not even resemble the original tale beyond Maurice getting locked up and Belle breaking the curse due to Katzenberg's insistence on having a feminist twist to the original tale [even Little Mermaid was more true to its source material, and that had a changed ending from the original tale, two changed endings in fact thanks to Katzenberg insisting on a Die Hard-type ending and thinking Ariel tackling Ursula was unrealistic {yet somehow Belle, who is obviously weaker than a mermaid, lifting Beast onto her horse and back onto the balcony in two separate events despite his clearly being heavier than her, is somehow realistic?}.], especially when the final film due to some of Belle's actions completely conflicting with the moral of the tale basically left the moral extremely broken. And Pocahontas, his true pet project [despite his claims, he was actually barely even involved in The Lion King's development], was, while not a box office bomb per-se, not exactly a successful movie especially given the era it was released in), and even The Little Mermaid had some close calls, considering he nearly tried to remove Part of Your World and of course the Die Hard-style ending (granted, I'll give him chops in that it did give a lot of testosterone action there and arguably made Eric a bit more of a badass, not that his badassery wasn't made clear as is, but it also kind of deprived Ariel a final hurrah.).
      Yeah, Katzenberg did cut out a lot of stuff from the movie. Didn't he cut out like 17 minutes of screen time from the film? Not exactly sure about that but he did cut a good time portion out of the film.  Wait, wait, WAIT; he tried to make Toy Story darker? Ain't no one try and direct Toy Story except Pixar, they're true master's at CGI. Well I think Katzenberg did a favor in making Beauty and the Beast unlike the original story (Look at the comparison between Snow White's original fairytale and the Disney version. They really lightened up the film) but I get your point. Katzenberg just wasn't cut out for screenwriting and animating, he's more of a producer guy and he did, in all fairness do that to boost up Disney through it's Renaissance. 
      I know about the changes for Snow White (though to be fair, they were planning to just have the poisoned comb present, but they cut it for time and was a last-minute change). However, even among Disney's usual changes to various Fairy Tales, Beauty and the Beast took it to a whole new level (Snow White at least followed many of the core points. Beauty and the Beast only seemed to retain one core point. They actually planned to do a version that was a bit closer to the original tale, but, predictably, Katzenberg basically nixed it, due to wanting a "feminist twist" to the story and due to the draft being "too dark" [which is flimsy at best as the screenplay was about as dark as the Disney versions of Cinderella and Snow White, and everyone managed from that, and if anything, the final version came across as being pretty cynical even with the happy ending. Beauty in the original tale may have been manipulated by her wicked sisters [which reminds me, other than those Bimbettes, Belle doesn't even have any foils, especially none that go with the whole internal beauty/internal ugliness dynamic, and even those three girls' characterizations were botched as, other than crushing on Gaston, they displayed absolutely nothing that even indicates they were internally ugly, and some of Belle's actions in the film make this worse. Even The Little Mermaid had a foil like that with Vanessa, and that wasn't even intended to be the moral of the tale in the Disney version] into delaying her return by a day, but even she didn't basically sell out the Beast and his servants to what was clearly an uncontrollable mob.].). And yes, Katzenberg actually DID demand a darker Toy Story. You can read it up here: Black Friday reel. You can even watch it below:
      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Basically, this mess was the result of Jeffrey Katzenberg demanding that the movie have a "more adult, cynical edge", and as you can see with this version, especially how Woody was depicted, that was an extremely awful idea. This even led Toy Story to nearly be cancelled.

      Damn you Katzenberg for nearly causing one of my favourite animated films OF ALL TIME, to nearly be cancelled! And yes I do agree with you on your Snow White point. Let's also not forget Frozen. That is a total change from the book, not even remotely close, but it's morals remained the same, and Disney even taught fans some new ones. 

        Loading editor
    • DisneyFan1901 wrote:
      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

      To be fair, it actually originally WAS going to be closer to the books, but then Jeffrey Katzenberg basically cut several bits of film out in an extremely reckless manner. That was actually largely the reason why the film was a huge failure. Sure, maybe if Katzenberg didn't do anything, there wasn't a guarantee it would have been a smash hit due to being pretty dark, but it WOULD have definitely gotten far better turnout than being a box office bomb. And unfortunately, despite the film flopping largely being HIS fault, Katzenberg used it's bomb status to gloat and get his way by making a lot of changes to various Disney films that were frankly unneeded, including, ironically, the Black Friday reel of Toy Story (the irony being that even though Black Cauldron was a dark film, Katzenberg actually attempted to make Toy Story much darker, and not in a good way). I think Lion King and The Little Mermaid actually were spared of most of the needless edits that Katzenberg proposed for the various films (Aladdin was infamous for basically having to rewrite most of the entire film from scratch by Katzenberg's order in an extremely short time period, and Beauty and the Beast had to be completely rewritten to not even resemble the original tale beyond Maurice getting locked up and Belle breaking the curse due to Katzenberg's insistence on having a feminist twist to the original tale [even Little Mermaid was more true to its source material, and that had a changed ending from the original tale, two changed endings in fact thanks to Katzenberg insisting on a Die Hard-type ending and thinking Ariel tackling Ursula was unrealistic {yet somehow Belle, who is obviously weaker than a mermaid, lifting Beast onto her horse and back onto the balcony in two separate events despite his clearly being heavier than her, is somehow realistic?}.], especially when the final film due to some of Belle's actions completely conflicting with the moral of the tale basically left the moral extremely broken. And Pocahontas, his true pet project [despite his claims, he was actually barely even involved in The Lion King's development], was, while not a box office bomb per-se, not exactly a successful movie especially given the era it was released in), and even The Little Mermaid had some close calls, considering he nearly tried to remove Part of Your World and of course the Die Hard-style ending (granted, I'll give him chops in that it did give a lot of testosterone action there and arguably made Eric a bit more of a badass, not that his badassery wasn't made clear as is, but it also kind of deprived Ariel a final hurrah.).
      Yeah, Katzenberg did cut out a lot of stuff from the movie. Didn't he cut out like 17 minutes of screen time from the film? Not exactly sure about that but he did cut a good time portion out of the film.  Wait, wait, WAIT; he tried to make Toy Story darker? Ain't no one try and direct Toy Story except Pixar, they're true master's at CGI. Well I think Katzenberg did a favor in making Beauty and the Beast unlike the original story (Look at the comparison between Snow White's original fairytale and the Disney version. They really lightened up the film) but I get your point. Katzenberg just wasn't cut out for screenwriting and animating, he's more of a producer guy and he did, in all fairness do that to boost up Disney through it's Renaissance. 
      I know about the changes for Snow White (though to be fair, they were planning to just have the poisoned comb present, but they cut it for time and was a last-minute change). However, even among Disney's usual changes to various Fairy Tales, Beauty and the Beast took it to a whole new level (Snow White at least followed many of the core points. Beauty and the Beast only seemed to retain one core point. They actually planned to do a version that was a bit closer to the original tale, but, predictably, Katzenberg basically nixed it, due to wanting a "feminist twist" to the story and due to the draft being "too dark" [which is flimsy at best as the screenplay was about as dark as the Disney versions of Cinderella and Snow White, and everyone managed from that, and if anything, the final version came across as being pretty cynical even with the happy ending. Beauty in the original tale may have been manipulated by her wicked sisters [which reminds me, other than those Bimbettes, Belle doesn't even have any foils, especially none that go with the whole internal beauty/internal ugliness dynamic, and even those three girls' characterizations were botched as, other than crushing on Gaston, they displayed absolutely nothing that even indicates they were internally ugly, and some of Belle's actions in the film make this worse. Even The Little Mermaid had a foil like that with Vanessa, and that wasn't even intended to be the moral of the tale in the Disney version] into delaying her return by a day, but even she didn't basically sell out the Beast and his servants to what was clearly an uncontrollable mob.].). And yes, Katzenberg actually DID demand a darker Toy Story. You can read it up here: Black Friday reel. You can even watch it below:
      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Basically, this mess was the result of Jeffrey Katzenberg demanding that the movie have a "more adult, cynical edge", and as you can see with this version, especially how Woody was depicted, that was an extremely awful idea. This even led Toy Story to nearly be cancelled.

      Damn you Katzenberg for nearly causing one of my favourite animated films OF ALL TIME, to nearly be cancelled! And yes I do agree with you on your Snow White point. Let's also not forget Frozen. That is a total change from the book, not even remotely close, but it's morals remained the same, and Disney even taught fans some new ones. 

      Would all of you please cut Katzenberg some slack because of being fired by Michael Eisner because of the death of Frank Wells, for he did helped make the Lion King successful

        Loading editor
    • Walt Disney, Jr. wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote:
      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

      To be fair, it actually originally WAS going to be closer to the books, but then Jeffrey Katzenberg basically cut several bits of film out in an extremely reckless manner. That was actually largely the reason why the film was a huge failure. Sure, maybe if Katzenberg didn't do anything, there wasn't a guarantee it would have been a smash hit due to being pretty dark, but it WOULD have definitely gotten far better turnout than being a box office bomb. And unfortunately, despite the film flopping largely being HIS fault, Katzenberg used it's bomb status to gloat and get his way by making a lot of changes to various Disney films that were frankly unneeded, including, ironically, the Black Friday reel of Toy Story (the irony being that even though Black Cauldron was a dark film, Katzenberg actually attempted to make Toy Story much darker, and not in a good way). I think Lion King and The Little Mermaid actually were spared of most of the needless edits that Katzenberg proposed for the various films (Aladdin was infamous for basically having to rewrite most of the entire film from scratch by Katzenberg's order in an extremely short time period, and Beauty and the Beast had to be completely rewritten to not even resemble the original tale beyond Maurice getting locked up and Belle breaking the curse due to Katzenberg's insistence on having a feminist twist to the original tale [even Little Mermaid was more true to its source material, and that had a changed ending from the original tale, two changed endings in fact thanks to Katzenberg insisting on a Die Hard-type ending and thinking Ariel tackling Ursula was unrealistic {yet somehow Belle, who is obviously weaker than a mermaid, lifting Beast onto her horse and back onto the balcony in two separate events despite his clearly being heavier than her, is somehow realistic?}.], especially when the final film due to some of Belle's actions completely conflicting with the moral of the tale basically left the moral extremely broken. And Pocahontas, his true pet project [despite his claims, he was actually barely even involved in The Lion King's development], was, while not a box office bomb per-se, not exactly a successful movie especially given the era it was released in), and even The Little Mermaid had some close calls, considering he nearly tried to remove Part of Your World and of course the Die Hard-style ending (granted, I'll give him chops in that it did give a lot of testosterone action there and arguably made Eric a bit more of a badass, not that his badassery wasn't made clear as is, but it also kind of deprived Ariel a final hurrah.).
      Yeah, Katzenberg did cut out a lot of stuff from the movie. Didn't he cut out like 17 minutes of screen time from the film? Not exactly sure about that but he did cut a good time portion out of the film.  Wait, wait, WAIT; he tried to make Toy Story darker? Ain't no one try and direct Toy Story except Pixar, they're true master's at CGI. Well I think Katzenberg did a favor in making Beauty and the Beast unlike the original story (Look at the comparison between Snow White's original fairytale and the Disney version. They really lightened up the film) but I get your point. Katzenberg just wasn't cut out for screenwriting and animating, he's more of a producer guy and he did, in all fairness do that to boost up Disney through it's Renaissance. 
      I know about the changes for Snow White (though to be fair, they were planning to just have the poisoned comb present, but they cut it for time and was a last-minute change). However, even among Disney's usual changes to various Fairy Tales, Beauty and the Beast took it to a whole new level (Snow White at least followed many of the core points. Beauty and the Beast only seemed to retain one core point. They actually planned to do a version that was a bit closer to the original tale, but, predictably, Katzenberg basically nixed it, due to wanting a "feminist twist" to the story and due to the draft being "too dark" [which is flimsy at best as the screenplay was about as dark as the Disney versions of Cinderella and Snow White, and everyone managed from that, and if anything, the final version came across as being pretty cynical even with the happy ending. Beauty in the original tale may have been manipulated by her wicked sisters [which reminds me, other than those Bimbettes, Belle doesn't even have any foils, especially none that go with the whole internal beauty/internal ugliness dynamic, and even those three girls' characterizations were botched as, other than crushing on Gaston, they displayed absolutely nothing that even indicates they were internally ugly, and some of Belle's actions in the film make this worse. Even The Little Mermaid had a foil like that with Vanessa, and that wasn't even intended to be the moral of the tale in the Disney version] into delaying her return by a day, but even she didn't basically sell out the Beast and his servants to what was clearly an uncontrollable mob.].). And yes, Katzenberg actually DID demand a darker Toy Story. You can read it up here: Black Friday reel. You can even watch it below:
      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Basically, this mess was the result of Jeffrey Katzenberg demanding that the movie have a "more adult, cynical edge", and as you can see with this version, especially how Woody was depicted, that was an extremely awful idea. This even led Toy Story to nearly be cancelled.

      Damn you Katzenberg for nearly causing one of my favourite animated films OF ALL TIME, to nearly be cancelled! And yes I do agree with you on your Snow White point. Let's also not forget Frozen. That is a total change from the book, not even remotely close, but it's morals remained the same, and Disney even taught fans some new ones. 

      Would all of you please cut Katzenberg some slack because of being fired by Michael Eisner because of the death of Frank Wells, for he did helped make the Lion King successful

      Actually, according to the documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty, he actually had very minimal involvement in Lion King and even thought it would have bombed. In fact, during the time Lion King was made, he actually was working extensively on Pocahontas.

      Still, we'll drop the Katzenberg subject.

        Loading editor
    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Walt Disney, Jr. wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote:
      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

      To be fair, it actually originally WAS going to be closer to the books, but then Jeffrey Katzenberg basically cut several bits of film out in an extremely reckless manner. That was actually largely the reason why the film was a huge failure. Sure, maybe if Katzenberg didn't do anything, there wasn't a guarantee it would have been a smash hit due to being pretty dark, but it WOULD have definitely gotten far better turnout than being a box office bomb. And unfortunately, despite the film flopping largely being HIS fault, Katzenberg used it's bomb status to gloat and get his way by making a lot of changes to various Disney films that were frankly unneeded, including, ironically, the Black Friday reel of Toy Story (the irony being that even though Black Cauldron was a dark film, Katzenberg actually attempted to make Toy Story much darker, and not in a good way). I think Lion King and The Little Mermaid actually were spared of most of the needless edits that Katzenberg proposed for the various films (Aladdin was infamous for basically having to rewrite most of the entire film from scratch by Katzenberg's order in an extremely short time period, and Beauty and the Beast had to be completely rewritten to not even resemble the original tale beyond Maurice getting locked up and Belle breaking the curse due to Katzenberg's insistence on having a feminist twist to the original tale [even Little Mermaid was more true to its source material, and that had a changed ending from the original tale, two changed endings in fact thanks to Katzenberg insisting on a Die Hard-type ending and thinking Ariel tackling Ursula was unrealistic {yet somehow Belle, who is obviously weaker than a mermaid, lifting Beast onto her horse and back onto the balcony in two separate events despite his clearly being heavier than her, is somehow realistic?}.], especially when the final film due to some of Belle's actions completely conflicting with the moral of the tale basically left the moral extremely broken. And Pocahontas, his true pet project [despite his claims, he was actually barely even involved in The Lion King's development], was, while not a box office bomb per-se, not exactly a successful movie especially given the era it was released in), and even The Little Mermaid had some close calls, considering he nearly tried to remove Part of Your World and of course the Die Hard-style ending (granted, I'll give him chops in that it did give a lot of testosterone action there and arguably made Eric a bit more of a badass, not that his badassery wasn't made clear as is, but it also kind of deprived Ariel a final hurrah.).
      Yeah, Katzenberg did cut out a lot of stuff from the movie. Didn't he cut out like 17 minutes of screen time from the film? Not exactly sure about that but he did cut a good time portion out of the film.  Wait, wait, WAIT; he tried to make Toy Story darker? Ain't no one try and direct Toy Story except Pixar, they're true master's at CGI. Well I think Katzenberg did a favor in making Beauty and the Beast unlike the original story (Look at the comparison between Snow White's original fairytale and the Disney version. They really lightened up the film) but I get your point. Katzenberg just wasn't cut out for screenwriting and animating, he's more of a producer guy and he did, in all fairness do that to boost up Disney through it's Renaissance. 
      I know about the changes for Snow White (though to be fair, they were planning to just have the poisoned comb present, but they cut it for time and was a last-minute change). However, even among Disney's usual changes to various Fairy Tales, Beauty and the Beast took it to a whole new level (Snow White at least followed many of the core points. Beauty and the Beast only seemed to retain one core point. They actually planned to do a version that was a bit closer to the original tale, but, predictably, Katzenberg basically nixed it, due to wanting a "feminist twist" to the story and due to the draft being "too dark" [which is flimsy at best as the screenplay was about as dark as the Disney versions of Cinderella and Snow White, and everyone managed from that, and if anything, the final version came across as being pretty cynical even with the happy ending. Beauty in the original tale may have been manipulated by her wicked sisters [which reminds me, other than those Bimbettes, Belle doesn't even have any foils, especially none that go with the whole internal beauty/internal ugliness dynamic, and even those three girls' characterizations were botched as, other than crushing on Gaston, they displayed absolutely nothing that even indicates they were internally ugly, and some of Belle's actions in the film make this worse. Even The Little Mermaid had a foil like that with Vanessa, and that wasn't even intended to be the moral of the tale in the Disney version] into delaying her return by a day, but even she didn't basically sell out the Beast and his servants to what was clearly an uncontrollable mob.].). And yes, Katzenberg actually DID demand a darker Toy Story. You can read it up here: Black Friday reel. You can even watch it below:
      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Basically, this mess was the result of Jeffrey Katzenberg demanding that the movie have a "more adult, cynical edge", and as you can see with this version, especially how Woody was depicted, that was an extremely awful idea. This even led Toy Story to nearly be cancelled.

      Damn you Katzenberg for nearly causing one of my favourite animated films OF ALL TIME, to nearly be cancelled! And yes I do agree with you on your Snow White point. Let's also not forget Frozen. That is a total change from the book, not even remotely close, but it's morals remained the same, and Disney even taught fans some new ones. 
      Would all of you please cut Katzenberg some slack because of being fired by Michael Eisner because of the death of Frank Wells, for he did helped make the Lion King successful
      Actually, according to the documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty, he actually had very minimal involvement in Lion King and even thought it would have bombed. In fact, during the time Lion King was made, he actually was working extensively on Pocahontas.

      Still, we'll drop the Katzenberg subject.

      OK

        Loading editor
    • Walt Disney, Jr. wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Walt Disney, Jr. wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote:
      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

      To be fair, it actually originally WAS going to be closer to the books, but then Jeffrey Katzenberg basically cut several bits of film out in an extremely reckless manner. That was actually largely the reason why the film was a huge failure. Sure, maybe if Katzenberg didn't do anything, there wasn't a guarantee it would have been a smash hit due to being pretty dark, but it WOULD have definitely gotten far better turnout than being a box office bomb. And unfortunately, despite the film flopping largely being HIS fault, Katzenberg used it's bomb status to gloat and get his way by making a lot of changes to various Disney films that were frankly unneeded, including, ironically, the Black Friday reel of Toy Story (the irony being that even though Black Cauldron was a dark film, Katzenberg actually attempted to make Toy Story much darker, and not in a good way). I think Lion King and The Little Mermaid actually were spared of most of the needless edits that Katzenberg proposed for the various films (Aladdin was infamous for basically having to rewrite most of the entire film from scratch by Katzenberg's order in an extremely short time period, and Beauty and the Beast had to be completely rewritten to not even resemble the original tale beyond Maurice getting locked up and Belle breaking the curse due to Katzenberg's insistence on having a feminist twist to the original tale [even Little Mermaid was more true to its source material, and that had a changed ending from the original tale, two changed endings in fact thanks to Katzenberg insisting on a Die Hard-type ending and thinking Ariel tackling Ursula was unrealistic {yet somehow Belle, who is obviously weaker than a mermaid, lifting Beast onto her horse and back onto the balcony in two separate events despite his clearly being heavier than her, is somehow realistic?}.], especially when the final film due to some of Belle's actions completely conflicting with the moral of the tale basically left the moral extremely broken. And Pocahontas, his true pet project [despite his claims, he was actually barely even involved in The Lion King's development], was, while not a box office bomb per-se, not exactly a successful movie especially given the era it was released in), and even The Little Mermaid had some close calls, considering he nearly tried to remove Part of Your World and of course the Die Hard-style ending (granted, I'll give him chops in that it did give a lot of testosterone action there and arguably made Eric a bit more of a badass, not that his badassery wasn't made clear as is, but it also kind of deprived Ariel a final hurrah.).
      Yeah, Katzenberg did cut out a lot of stuff from the movie. Didn't he cut out like 17 minutes of screen time from the film? Not exactly sure about that but he did cut a good time portion out of the film.  Wait, wait, WAIT; he tried to make Toy Story darker? Ain't no one try and direct Toy Story except Pixar, they're true master's at CGI. Well I think Katzenberg did a favor in making Beauty and the Beast unlike the original story (Look at the comparison between Snow White's original fairytale and the Disney version. They really lightened up the film) but I get your point. Katzenberg just wasn't cut out for screenwriting and animating, he's more of a producer guy and he did, in all fairness do that to boost up Disney through it's Renaissance. 
      I know about the changes for Snow White (though to be fair, they were planning to just have the poisoned comb present, but they cut it for time and was a last-minute change). However, even among Disney's usual changes to various Fairy Tales, Beauty and the Beast took it to a whole new level (Snow White at least followed many of the core points. Beauty and the Beast only seemed to retain one core point. They actually planned to do a version that was a bit closer to the original tale, but, predictably, Katzenberg basically nixed it, due to wanting a "feminist twist" to the story and due to the draft being "too dark" [which is flimsy at best as the screenplay was about as dark as the Disney versions of Cinderella and Snow White, and everyone managed from that, and if anything, the final version came across as being pretty cynical even with the happy ending. Beauty in the original tale may have been manipulated by her wicked sisters [which reminds me, other than those Bimbettes, Belle doesn't even have any foils, especially none that go with the whole internal beauty/internal ugliness dynamic, and even those three girls' characterizations were botched as, other than crushing on Gaston, they displayed absolutely nothing that even indicates they were internally ugly, and some of Belle's actions in the film make this worse. Even The Little Mermaid had a foil like that with Vanessa, and that wasn't even intended to be the moral of the tale in the Disney version] into delaying her return by a day, but even she didn't basically sell out the Beast and his servants to what was clearly an uncontrollable mob.].). And yes, Katzenberg actually DID demand a darker Toy Story. You can read it up here: Black Friday reel. You can even watch it below:
      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Basically, this mess was the result of Jeffrey Katzenberg demanding that the movie have a "more adult, cynical edge", and as you can see with this version, especially how Woody was depicted, that was an extremely awful idea. This even led Toy Story to nearly be cancelled.

      Damn you Katzenberg for nearly causing one of my favourite animated films OF ALL TIME, to nearly be cancelled! And yes I do agree with you on your Snow White point. Let's also not forget Frozen. That is a total change from the book, not even remotely close, but it's morals remained the same, and Disney even taught fans some new ones. 
      Would all of you please cut Katzenberg some slack because of being fired by Michael Eisner because of the death of Frank Wells, for he did helped make the Lion King successful
      Actually, according to the documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty, he actually had very minimal involvement in Lion King and even thought it would have bombed. In fact, during the time Lion King was made, he actually was working extensively on Pocahontas.

      Still, we'll drop the Katzenberg subject.

      OK

      One more thing before we drop this, Katzenberg wasn't ever really much of an animator or writer. He rather lead movies in the producing area more. That we can give him credit for.

        Loading editor
    • DisneyFan1901 wrote:

      Walt Disney, Jr. wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Walt Disney, Jr. wrote:


      DisneyFan1901 wrote:
      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote:



      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyFan1901 wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I do like the movie but it could've been better if it were like the books. It's not that I don't think she doesn't deserve to be apart of the DP franchise, but she really doesn't have proof of being a princess despite her title and she doesn't teach special morals to kids unlike Belle, Jasmine Mulan etc. (Again this was 1985, BEFORE The Disney Renaissance and The Little Mermaid, the only Princess references writers and animators had was The original three princesses) but she doesn't deserve to be forgotten because of audiences reaction to the film.

      Well her powers are a bit more experienced in the books (but not by much though) she only knows minor enchantments. She has proof of being a princess because she comes from a long line of enchanters/enchantresses and war heros (even women!). Her family was the House of Llyr, they ruled on the Isle of Mona from Caer Colur (a place in prydain). When she first introduces herself to Taran she says "I am Eilonwy, daughter of Angharad (her mother), daughter of Regat (Her grandmother) daughter of- of it's such a bother going through all of that! My ancestors are the sea people of llyr, half-speech sea king" (Llyr is also a real Welsh God) so there is proof that she comes from a powerful lineage of rulers. Also her "bauble is actually called The Golden Pleydryn, an object that is passed down through mothers and daughters in the house of llyr. It doesn't float, it has to be hand held and it always glows a golden light whenever Eilonwy holds it. Her main source of power comes through the pleydryn and in the books she uses it to decode a book of spells. She is chatty, stubborn, and very talkative.

      That is what Eilonwy is like in the book. Sorry for writing a book about this :D but that is what her personality is in the book. I agree, the movie can still become a great success with it's growing fanbase.

      To be fair, it actually originally WAS going to be closer to the books, but then Jeffrey Katzenberg basically cut several bits of film out in an extremely reckless manner. That was actually largely the reason why the film was a huge failure. Sure, maybe if Katzenberg didn't do anything, there wasn't a guarantee it would have been a smash hit due to being pretty dark, but it WOULD have definitely gotten far better turnout than being a box office bomb. And unfortunately, despite the film flopping largely being HIS fault, Katzenberg used it's bomb status to gloat and get his way by making a lot of changes to various Disney films that were frankly unneeded, including, ironically, the Black Friday reel of Toy Story (the irony being that even though Black Cauldron was a dark film, Katzenberg actually attempted to make Toy Story much darker, and not in a good way). I think Lion King and The Little Mermaid actually were spared of most of the needless edits that Katzenberg proposed for the various films (Aladdin was infamous for basically having to rewrite most of the entire film from scratch by Katzenberg's order in an extremely short time period, and Beauty and the Beast had to be completely rewritten to not even resemble the original tale beyond Maurice getting locked up and Belle breaking the curse due to Katzenberg's insistence on having a feminist twist to the original tale [even Little Mermaid was more true to its source material, and that had a changed ending from the original tale, two changed endings in fact thanks to Katzenberg insisting on a Die Hard-type ending and thinking Ariel tackling Ursula was unrealistic {yet somehow Belle, who is obviously weaker than a mermaid, lifting Beast onto her horse and back onto the balcony in two separate events despite his clearly being heavier than her, is somehow realistic?}.], especially when the final film due to some of Belle's actions completely conflicting with the moral of the tale basically left the moral extremely broken. And Pocahontas, his true pet project [despite his claims, he was actually barely even involved in The Lion King's development], was, while not a box office bomb per-se, not exactly a successful movie especially given the era it was released in), and even The Little Mermaid had some close calls, considering he nearly tried to remove Part of Your World and of course the Die Hard-style ending (granted, I'll give him chops in that it did give a lot of testosterone action there and arguably made Eric a bit more of a badass, not that his badassery wasn't made clear as is, but it also kind of deprived Ariel a final hurrah.).
      Yeah, Katzenberg did cut out a lot of stuff from the movie. Didn't he cut out like 17 minutes of screen time from the film? Not exactly sure about that but he did cut a good time portion out of the film.  Wait, wait, WAIT; he tried to make Toy Story darker? Ain't no one try and direct Toy Story except Pixar, they're true master's at CGI. Well I think Katzenberg did a favor in making Beauty and the Beast unlike the original story (Look at the comparison between Snow White's original fairytale and the Disney version. They really lightened up the film) but I get your point. Katzenberg just wasn't cut out for screenwriting and animating, he's more of a producer guy and he did, in all fairness do that to boost up Disney through it's Renaissance. 
      I know about the changes for Snow White (though to be fair, they were planning to just have the poisoned comb present, but they cut it for time and was a last-minute change). However, even among Disney's usual changes to various Fairy Tales, Beauty and the Beast took it to a whole new level (Snow White at least followed many of the core points. Beauty and the Beast only seemed to retain one core point. They actually planned to do a version that was a bit closer to the original tale, but, predictably, Katzenberg basically nixed it, due to wanting a "feminist twist" to the story and due to the draft being "too dark" [which is flimsy at best as the screenplay was about as dark as the Disney versions of Cinderella and Snow White, and everyone managed from that, and if anything, the final version came across as being pretty cynical even with the happy ending. Beauty in the original tale may have been manipulated by her wicked sisters [which reminds me, other than those Bimbettes, Belle doesn't even have any foils, especially none that go with the whole internal beauty/internal ugliness dynamic, and even those three girls' characterizations were botched as, other than crushing on Gaston, they displayed absolutely nothing that even indicates they were internally ugly, and some of Belle's actions in the film make this worse. Even The Little Mermaid had a foil like that with Vanessa, and that wasn't even intended to be the moral of the tale in the Disney version] into delaying her return by a day, but even she didn't basically sell out the Beast and his servants to what was clearly an uncontrollable mob.].). And yes, Katzenberg actually DID demand a darker Toy Story. You can read it up here: Black Friday reel. You can even watch it below:
      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Toy Story Black Friday Reel

      Basically, this mess was the result of Jeffrey Katzenberg demanding that the movie have a "more adult, cynical edge", and as you can see with this version, especially how Woody was depicted, that was an extremely awful idea. This even led Toy Story to nearly be cancelled.

      Damn you Katzenberg for nearly causing one of my favourite animated films OF ALL TIME, to nearly be cancelled! And yes I do agree with you on your Snow White point. Let's also not forget Frozen. That is a total change from the book, not even remotely close, but it's morals remained the same, and Disney even taught fans some new ones. 
      Would all of you please cut Katzenberg some slack because of being fired by Michael Eisner because of the death of Frank Wells, for he did helped make the Lion King successful
      Actually, according to the documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty, he actually had very minimal involvement in Lion King and even thought it would have bombed. In fact, during the time Lion King was made, he actually was working extensively on Pocahontas.

      Still, we'll drop the Katzenberg subject.

      OK
      One more thing before we drop this, Katzenberg wasn't ever really much of an animator or writer. He rather lead movies in the producing area more. That we can give him credit for.

      Oh yes indeed

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    • Disney is appreciated The Black Cauldron when it improve popularity. It feels like Disney is going to make Eilonwy to be an official Disney Princess.

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    • What, and take attention away from a movie that actually deserves to be appreciated more? It should just stay buried and forgotten.

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    • Neo Theta wrote:
      What, and take attention away from a movie that actually deserves to be appreciated more? It should just stay buried and forgotten.
      This is for you Neo Theta.
      "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!" Sparta Mix

      "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!" Sparta Mix

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    • Cherryblossomfan1234 wrote:
      Disney is appreciated The Black Cauldron when it improve popularity. It feels like Disney is going to make Eilonwy to be an official Disney Princess.

      Oh yeas very true

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    • I think we should cheer up The Black Cauldron.

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    • There is already an Eilonwy doll, but i don't see it in stores.

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    • I know I found the Picture

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    • Maybe we should write a fan fiction about Eilonwy and her friends.

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    • What are we going to do next?

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    • I liked the movie but I think the book was much better. I like Eowyn a lot. She was funny , brave and no your every day princess like before. ( As Snow white , Auoura and Cinderella ) I havent seen the movie in a while but I think more people should know it exist. It is a nice and funny movie. 

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    • I agree.

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    • She is not like any other Disney Princess. If she become an official Disney Princess, she will lighten the franchise.

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    • Cherryblossomfan1234 wrote:
      She is not like any other Disney Princess. If she become an official Disney Princess, she will lighten the franchise.

      Lighten the franchise?

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    • Yes, because of she teaches others to be brave and try hard.

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    • Cherryblossomfan1234 wrote: Yes, because of she teaches others to be brave and try hard.

      I thought Ariel, Belle and Mulan taught those values.

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    • Cherryblossomfan1234 wrote:
      Yes, because of she teaches others to be brave and try hard.

      You know I haven't thought about that

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    • Cherryblossomfan1234 wrote:
      Yes, because of she teaches others to be brave and try hard.

      You know, that would useful for Sofia the First if and when Eilonwy becomes on official Disney Princess

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    • I agree.

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    • My idea is to start a change.org petition to get the movie to get a special airing on Disney channel. Hey, TCM might put this in their movie showcase sometime!

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    • EpixAndroid wrote:
      My idea is to start a change.org petition to get the movie to get a special airing on Disney channel. Hey, TCM might put this in their movie showcase sometime!

      As the labra Dog from 101 Dalmatians would say "Say that is an idea". That would work.

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    • So let's petition for a The Black Cauldron TV series.

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    • Cherryblossomfan1234 wrote:
      So let's petition for a The Black Cauldron TV series.

      Now let's not get carried away

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    • EpixAndroid wrote:
      My idea is to start a change.org petition to get the movie to get a special airing on Disney channel. Hey, TCM might put this in their movie showcase sometime!

      Well it did appeared in Toon Disney sometime before it got shut down.

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    • Walt Disney, Jr. wrote:

      Cherryblossomfan1234 wrote:
      Yes, because of she teaches others to be brave and try hard.

      You know, that would useful for Sofia the First if and when Eilonwy becomes on official Disney Princess

      Yeah, they should know it.

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    • I've discovered a way for The Black Cauldron to be appreciated even more: https://www.loc.gov/programs/national-film-preservation-board/film-registry/films-not-yet-named-to-the-registry/

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    • I never read the book series but I really enjoyed the movie. Maybe isn't the best that disney have made but isn't defenitily the worst, so I do agree that deserve more credit to it. 

      Making Eilonwy a disney princess could help the movie getting more atention, but I'm afraid that would wash out the movie itself by giving atention only to her, which is not necesseraly a bad thing but I would prefer the entire movie being apprecieated than only one character.

      I think if they make a live-action remake more like the book series it would help the original movie getting more atention, because, at least where I live, when they are close to realease a remake they do and sell a lot of merchandising of the original animated movie and that would give the chance to new audience know about it.

      This is just my opinion, I'm new at this and since I really liked this movie I just want to share it :)

      P.S.: I'm not an english speaker, so sorry for any linguage mistakes i've made :P

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    • A FANDOM user
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